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Thoughts about Rage stacking...

KN11F3DKN11F3D Posts: 213Member
edited November 2017 in Card Balance Discussion
Although I know this may have been talked about beforehand, I thought I may bring some light onto the subject.

I've been doing some testing with the Rage Spell and have been recently thinking about what it would be like to stack them. Think about it. If we added a Damage formula to this, it could spiral out of control because it would go up exponentially (especially PEKKA and Sparky), but for Hit Speed and Movement, there is a practical limit to experiment with.
That limit can help determine the interactions between Rage itself and the Lumberjack's Rage. For Hit Speed, the numbers can only ever go so low, with the gap getting smaller each time. For Movement, you only have a set amount of space (7 tiles between the Bridge and Tower) to actually move before they hit the next target.

Here are a couple of examples that I came up with that will definitely be picked up on. Numbers in [?] are the amount of Rage Spells used:
Remember Rage Increases by 35%

Lumberjack (Up to 1000 DPS)
Speed - Very Fast (3/sec) > [1] 4/sec > [2] 5.5/sec > [4 (Mirror + Clone)] 10/sec
Hit Speed - 0.7 seconds > [1] 0.5 seconds > [2] 0.38 seconds > [4] 0.2 seconds
4 Rages on a Very Fast troop is from the Bridge to the King in 1 second!
The 4th Rage is from the Spell Card while the last Lumberjack is still alive.
3 Lumberjack Rages accompany it.


Hog Rider and Elite Barbarians (Up to 330 and 317x2 DPS)
Speed - Very Fast (3/sec) > [1] 4/sec > [2] 5.5/sec
Hit Speed - 1.5 seconds > [1] 1.1 seconds > [2] 0.8 seconds

Three Musketeers (Up to 266 DPS [798 Total])
Speed - Medium (1.5/sec) > [1] 2/sec > [2] 2.7/sec
Hit Speed - 1.1 sec x3 > [1] 0.8 sec x3 > [2] 0.6 sec x3

Skeleton Army (Up to 122x14 DPS [1708 Total])
Speed - Fast (2/sec) > [1] 2.7/sec > [2] 3.6/sec
Hit Speed - 1 sec x14 > [1] 0.75 sec x14> [2] 0.5 sec x14

Sparky (Up to 501 DPS)
Speed - Slow (1/sec) > [1] 1.35/sec > [2] 1.8/sec
Hit Speed - 4 seconds > [1] 3 seconds > [2] 2.1 seconds

PEKKA (Up to 685 DPS)
Speed - Slow (1/sec) > [1] 1.35/sec > [2] 1.8/sec
Hit Speed - 1.8 seconds > [1] 1.3 seconds > [2] 1 second

Electro Wizard (Up to 96x2 DPS)
Speed - Fast (2/sec) > [1] 2.7/sec > [2] 3.6/sec
Hit Speed - 1.8 seconds > [1] 1.3 seconds > [2] 1 second
The Double Raged Electro Wizard won't be able to single-handedly hold two troops, but will stun as much as he waits.

Witch (Up to 181)
Speed - Medium (1.5/sec) > [1] 2/sec > [2] 2.7/sec
Hit Speed - 0.7 seconds > [1] 0.5 seconds > [2] 0.38 seconds
Spawn Rate - 7 seconds > [1] 5.1 seconds > [2] 3.8 seconds

Elixir Pump
Building (N/A)
Reproduction - 8.5 seconds > [1] 6.3 seconds > [2] 4.6 seconds
If Rage had lasted the duration of the Elixir Pump, it would generate 15 elixir in it's lifetime. Realistically it generates 1 more for each spell.

Tombstone
Building (N/A)
Spawn Rate - 2.9 seconds > [1] 2.1 seconds > [2] 1.6 seconds
If on an infinite duration, this will spawn 25 skeletons. Realistically 3 more for each spell.

Bowler(Up to 177 DPS)
Speed - Slow (1/sec) > [1] 1.35/sec > [2] 1.8/sec
Hit Speed - 2.5 seconds > [1] 1.85 seconds > [2] 1.35 seconds
This will not let anything slower than Very Fast through at all. Although they will still move forward, they gain barely any ground. Slow units cant move at all.

X-Bow (Up to 182 DPS)
Building (N/A)
Hit Speed - 0.25 seconds > [1] 0.18 seconds > [2] 0.137 seconds
This Double Raged X-Bow will fire 7 times a second!

- KN11F3D
What are your opinions on stacking Rage?
  1. What are your opinions on stacking Rage?24 votes
    1. Completely fine with it
      58.33%
    2. OK, as long as Rage has a slight nerf
        4.17%
    3. Good with a substantial nerf
      12.50%
    4. Don't like the idea at all
        4.17%
    5. Potato Salad
      20.83%
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Comments

  • CarlsonCarlson Posts: 1,059Member
    If we add the damage with the rage spell, it will be overpowered for 2 elixir.
    Please, read the rules and explanations
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  • KN11F3DKN11F3D Posts: 213Member
    Carlson wrote: »
    If we add the damage with the rage spell, it will be overpowered for 2 elixir.
    Exactly what I meant, which is why I wanted to focus only on Movement and Hit Speed.
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  • XLeonardXXLeonardX Posts: 123Member
    So Rage DO STACK.
    We are all part of the universe; hence being kind to anything is being kind to ourselves.
  • LegoTrooperLegoTrooper Posts: 187Member
    Wouldn't raged troops ignoring added effects of attacks be good? Like them ignoring icewiz freeze, ewiz stun, ice spirit freeze? This would obviously go with a slight buff to icewizard and would make the ewiz and ice spirit less powerful.
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  • RiriRiri Posts: 194Member
    Potato Salad Salami
    ok.
  • KN11F3DKN11F3D Posts: 213Member
    <p>
    Wouldn't raged troops ignoring added effects of attacks be good? Like them ignoring icewiz freeze, ewiz stun, ice spirit freeze? This would obviously go with a slight buff to icewizard and would make the ewiz and ice spirit less powerful.
    </p><p>It could be. And it isn't just Freeze or Slow either; knockback would also be countered to an extent as they move to attack faster than normal. You could even go as far as comparing the stacking to be as powerful as Clone could possibly be (besides you can't counter with Zap).</p>
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  • Damien4794Damien4794 Posts: 78Member
    Rage is naturally better in 2v2 than in 1v1 as the value of the Rage spell increases with the number of troops on the field. Stacking at least two Rages up costs at least 5 Elixir more, and I'd say a lone Sparky firing every 2.1 seconds with the same amount of HP as before is still pretty underpowered for 11 Elixir. I know that adding a tank in front changes the story altogether, but to amass enough Elixir to build up that sort of push will require more of an Elixir lead.

    As for the damage increase, it would definitely be an interesting new mechanic for the spell. However, the numbers have to be scaled appropriately, else there would be weird interaction inconsistencies. The closest 'power level multiplier' to the Rage boost % is 33%, or 3 levels higher. Additionally, you may wish to consider scaling the damage of the troop to the level of the Rage (e.g. Common units in a level 4 Rage will do the damage of level 12 units, etc). This will allow us to fix the duration of the Rage, which I feel is important as duration-scaled spells like Rage and Freeze may become underpowered at low levels and overpowered at high levels if their duration scales with level.
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  • KN11F3DKN11F3D Posts: 213Member
    edited November 2017
    Damien4794 wrote: »
    Rage is naturally better in 2v2 than in 1v1 as the value of the Rage spell increases with the number of troops on the field. Stacking at least two Rages up costs at least 5 Elixir more, and I'd say a lone Sparky firing every 2.1 seconds with the same amount of HP as before is still pretty underpowered for 11 Elixir. I know that adding a tank in front changes the story altogether, but to amass enough Elixir to build up that sort of push will require more of an Elixir lead./quote]

    The main concern with the Damage variable was that although it is viable, I was a bit sceptical about what would happen if both Damage and Stacking co-existed. For damage models, the equivalent of 33% would be 15.5% damage, 15.5% hit speed, or one and a half levels upward. Despite this though, it can make all the difference; a Sparky blast will deal 1270 instead of 1100 for example.
    Then we move on to stacking; if that same Rage Spell had it's effect repeated, it will deal 33% more damage and 33% extra hit speed, or 1.8x the original stats for 5 elixir. Sparky would have 1467 damage every 3 seconds.
    Comparing the DPS values, 1100 every 2.1 seconds has 501 DPS, while 1467 damage every 3 seconds has 489 DPS, but the fact that there is more damage behind each shot could change interactions a lot and could be a pain to balance with (since of course it applies to the Lumberjack as well).
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  • Damien4794Damien4794 Posts: 78Member
    KN11F3D wrote: »

    The main concern with the Damage variable was that although it is viable, I was a bit sceptical about what would happen if both Damage and Stacking co-existed. For damage models, the equivalent of 33% would be 15.5% damage, 15.5% hit speed, or one and a half levels upward. Despite this though, it can make all the difference; a Sparky blast will deal 1270 instead of 1100 for example.

    Then we move on to stacking; if that same Rage Spell had it's effect repeated, it will deal 33% more damage and 33% extra hit speed, or 1.8x the original stats for 5 elixir. Sparky would have 1467 damage every 3 seconds.

    Comparing the DPS values, 1100 every 2.1 seconds has 501 DPS, while 1467 damage every 3 seconds has 489 DPS, but the fact that there is more damage behind each shot could change interactions a lot and could be a pain to balance with (since of course it applies to the Lumberjack as well).

    Level scaling shouldn't be a problem at an equivalent level of Rage since some cards already scale stats of certain cards up a couple of levels (Mirror for example, and maybe the upcoming Barbarian Barrel too). Just like the Mirror, players will have to learn the interaction changes that come with the Rage level scaling.
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  • MagmatroidMagmatroid Posts: 35Member
    I'm going to say that I'm completely fine with this. Rage definitely needs a buff right now, even if it isn't direct.
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