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[MEGATHREAD][Suggestion] December Balance Changes

ferrell34ferrell34 Posts: 1,450Moderator
edited November 2018 in Card Balance Discussion
sup mates' ferrell34 here!
Today's thread would be something different than i usually do, a Balance Changes Suggestion that is. A bit of reminder, that this is not the first time i do threads like this. I've made one of these months ago in this forum and a couple back then in the official forums (good times indeed). So with all the feedbacks, datas, and inspirations i received, i'm ready for another one bites the dust.

Before going in, there are restrictions i want to make-meaning that there are cards that i acknowledge is in trouble, but i prefer not to touch them in this thread-with reasons and "purpose" for sure. So, here are the restrictions:

1. RG and EBarbs
These two cards are so special, despite being common, that they deserve their own threads regarding their balancing. Although imo, RG is in a good spot right now-but still don't bring them up here.

2. Cards that hasn't been a year in the game
"W-what? why?!" Hold right there, since i'll explain it after these restrictions. I promise you won't be dissapointed.

3. Support spells: Heal, Rage, Clone, and Freeze
Again, just like number 1-these cards are so special, yet broken at something, they deserve their own threads. For short, too controversial to summarize.

4. Rounding errors
Card levels rounding errors are considered "bugs" in my book. In other words, BUGS.DESERVE.THEIR OWN THREADS.

Now, let me explain number 2 and the purpose of this thread at the same time. I know that Recruits, Magic Archer, and Electro Dragon are in a messy spot right now. But listen, if SC did balance these cards-will it change the game staleness right now? Probably not.

As you can see, even the biggest balance changes this community considers (the Sparky buff one and the Zap nerf one if i'm not mistaken) doesn't even make the game's archetypes resigned-both in ladder or Challenges, especially ladder since it has been going around since launch. Certain decks only goes viable and unviable back to back, an exception for Siege since there are only two of them. 3M, Hog, Pekka, Lavaloon, Spell Cycle, Golem, Giant, Ebarbs Rage, you name it! The only time where everything is resigned is when Executioner and Night Witch beta release (but sadly it's not a balance changes and da game kinda broke).

So if you want to discuss on how to fix Recruits, MA, and Electro Dragon, feel free to comment at their own respective [OAO] CBD threads. Anyway, back to topic:

The point is, that this "problem" is caused by how dependable these old cards are as an Archetype and the Balance changes that has been made so far doesn't *summarize* everything up, all the archetypes. Thus, creating this ingame paradox.

SC said that they won't be doing big balance changes till' CRL is over, and that would be this December. Now, this might be the perfect opportunity to introduce the changes to all existing archetypes while making every existing playstyles still viable. I've made the list on what cards they should touch and the reason behind it below this thread.

Are you ready? Without any further ado, let's jump right in!
JcttehTheWise
Questions.
  1. Inspired by JcttehTheWise. How many did you read?7 votes
    1. I can't read.
        0.00%
    2. Don't read it.
        0.00%
    3. Only the changes (but did you read the restrictions?)
        0.00%
    4. 10%
        0.00%
    5. 25%
        0.00%
    6. 50%
        0.00%
    7. 75%
      14.29%
    8. All of it :)
      85.71%
  2. Do you like the changes?7 votes
    1. Yes, all of them!
      28.57%
    2. Only one, the others are good.
        0.00%
    3. 75%, don't like the rest.
      14.29%
    4. It's 50-50
      42.86%
    5. A quarter, mostly awful
        0.00%
    6. None. I don't like any of these changes.
        0.00%
    7. I like some but i don't like the direction it's going.
      14.29%
EarthThis signature is my city
Tagged:

Comments

  • ferrell34ferrell34 Posts: 1,450Moderator
    edited November 2018
    There are three type of changes known to mankind, that is:

    Reworks
    Buffs
    Nerfs


    Since y'all wait for too long (except if you just skipped the thread ;)), imma' put the most controversial changes first, that is:
    REWORKS
    Reworks are divided to three types, that is: Improve, Neutral, and Weaken

    Improve Reworks improve the card's performance, Neutral Reworks does nothing to the card's performance, and Weaken Reworks decreases the card's capabilities. What give them the title 'reworks' and unites them in one group is: they are used to fix cards by buffing a stat from them and nerfing the other. Let's start with Improve, then Neutral, and finally Weaken.

    Improve Reworks
    1. X-Bow
    - Deploy time decreased to 2.5 sec from 3.5 sec
    - Lifetime decreased to 30 sec from 40 sec

    Since the RG change, X-Bow's been an underwhelming card to play with. Especially, with the recent balance changes after what SC said before about it. It just add salt to injury. No, it's salt squished with lemonade. This make me believe, that there are no cards to be buffed or changed to save XBow from this (well, in a reasonable way). Instead, it must be the XBow itself that has to be changed.
    By making XBow harder to react, it should make XBow easier to play. To prevent it from being too powerful, they should exchange it's vulnarability to spells and damage in short term.

    2. Bomb Tower
    - Hitspeed decreased to 1.1 sec from 1.6 sec; DPS increased by 46%
    - Added blind range: 1 tile (Mortar's mechanic)

    @micsfyuen 's thread: What can Bomb Tower do?? inspires me for this change. Currently, Bomb tower has no competitive appeal than other defensive buildings whatsoever. So by making Bomb Tower the only defensive building that is used to deal with glass cannon and ground swarms in a push, would give it an interest to try. An absolute gamechanger, usually defensive buildings are used to take care of the tank or the main pusher that outlands the damage but not Bomb tower. Might be perfect for Beatdown and Cycle Hybrid decks, but not Beatdown nor Cycle itself. Siege works too.

    3. Rocket
    - Radius decreased to 1.5 from 2 tiles
    - Projectile speed increased to Fireball speed

    Rocket's been falling back with the game's lead to short term plays. Reactive spells are the G. Other than that, Rocket is also an "exclusive" spell to fast cycle decks or decks that allows accumulating elixir. This needs to change, real quick. (Hah, get it?). By doing the changes above, this should kill two minions with one stone. As an exchange, Rocket's radius would be toned down abit to give it more limit for skill-wise. So it wouldn't end up more in Noob Archetypes (reference to @JcttehTheWise latest thread, during this time).

    Also, if this change works out-this would tone down Beatdown and Siege performances, especially siege after the XBow change.

    Neutral Reworks
    1. Night Witch
    - Spawn rate increased to 9 sec from 7 sec
    - Death spawn increased to 4 from 2 Bats

    Night Witch is indeed viable, but mostly only in Golem decks unfortunately. And Golem decks are mostly META with Night Witch. Viable, META, big difference, okay? So, i decided that this is quite a problem and found a proper solution too (imo). With the changes above, Night Witch will be abit less viable in Golem decks since it would be harder for her to accumulate the Bats in the push. And instead, she will be more viable in Miner Control, Miner Giant Beatdown or Bait Beatdown decks with her new death spawn which makes her better at defending and more of a threat upon death. She might work as a Cycle win condition too, but who knows? :crsmirk:

    2. Lavahound
    - Size increased to 3x3 from 1x1, ex: Recruits take 8x1 tiles to deploy
    - Lavapups: Hitpoints increased by 6%; Damage increased by 37%

    What does this mean? Lavahound will now no longer be able to place at the farthest edge tile near the bridge. This move has been META with the help of Balloon thus creating Lavaloon decks. SO basically i'm monky this change's purpose is similiar to the NW above. Lavahound's too attached to Balloon to be viable, and currently things aren't working out for Lavaloon decks right now. With the changes above, Balloon should take off (not completely) from Lavahound and let it be a Beast on it's own. With the new pups that survives skeleton barrel DD + 1 tower shot and one shots Bats, Lavahound will now be viable as it's own archetype-with the help of Miner (for sure) or other fast units (Dark Prince, maybe?).

    Weaken Reworks
    1. PEKKA
    - Sight range increased to 6.5 from 5.5 tiles

    @killer 's beloved card (/s) does need some sort of tweak after looking couple of months of her outstanding performance in METAs. But at the same time, nerfing PEKKA in any statistic way will rise Building targeting tank-Beatdown to the surface, and also MK, another one of @killer 's favorite (/s). So the best way to do it is to nerf her offensive capabilities without touching any of defensive capabilities. That is by increasing her sight range, and Ice Golem-end of story.

    2. Golem
    - Deploy time decreased to 2 from 3 sec
    - Golemmites: Hitpoints increased by 5%; Death damage knockback removed

    No doubt that this card is a competitive rival to PEKKA. But again, Golem on it's own isn't a pretty bright card to use, at all, even with the cost. So, to properly notch Golem down, it's ability to accumulate push has to be toned down by making it's DT faster. To compensate it, the Golemmites' HP buff should do it. Again, with the removal of their DD knockback-so it wouldn't be too hard to counter since swarms can do their job now after the Golem is taken care of.
    JcttehTheWise
    EarthThis signature is my city
  • ferrell34ferrell34 Posts: 1,450Moderator
    edited November 2018
    The next one would be a less controversial one, but more controversial than the other, and that is:
    BUFFS
    Unlike Improve Rework, Buffs improves the card's performance by increasing/ improves their existing powers only, no changing or nerfing. Now let's begin with:

    1. Bomber
    - Hitpoints increased by 5%
    - Projectile changed to Homing Projectile

    This lil' dude is never shown on spotlight in a proper manner, both in top ladder or Challenges. So let's face it, the reason Bomber is pretty weak because it's slow, squishy, and too costy most of the time. To fix this, Bomber should be able to compensate the 3 elixir cost he was charged to. With this changes, Bomber now survives one hit from a Prince and a DASH from a Bandit. His new projectile will now no longer misses any target, despite it being slow, just like Baby Dragon. This should help the speed problem he's having, without turning him into a DPS monster in ladder.

    He could be used in Control decks as a counter to Bridge Spam.

    2. Executioner
    - Initial attack speed decreased to 0.7 sec; Hitspeed decreased to 2.2 from 2.4 sec; DPS increased by 9%

    Oh yeah, it's happening. Believe me or not, but Executioner is currently being overshadowed by Wizard in most of the decks both in ladder and Challenges competitively. I am certain that the Wizard buff and the Tornado duration nerf really dump him in the basement. So instead of nerfing Wizard and buffing Tornado-Executioner should be faster to be able to catch up with the new Tornado. With this change, He might be effective in Heavy Beatdown decks again.

    Other than that, the Noob archetype might use him again in decks. Thus, decreasing Wizard's userates significantly.

    3. Goblins
    - Hitspeed decreased to 1 from 1.1 sec*
    *Affects Goblin Gang and Goblin Barrel

    Just hold on for a second and let me ask you something first. You know that Goblins is a card, not only a troop, right? Now, are they ever been used in competitive decks? In fact, no. It's been months or probably a year that Goblins hasn't been given love in balance changes. It's because of Goblin Gang and Goblin Barrel are being used widely during those times, and it would be dumb if they receive any buffs. But recently, Logbait's been listed out from viability-not just META, viability. The release of EDrag and the rose of BB did it. Since Goblin Gang and Goblin Barrel are mostly used in Logbait, their userates should be dropping down now, especially Goblin Barrel. This. IS. the perfect opportunity to introduce this buff, especially with the ongoing Executioner, Bomb Tower, and Bomber buff above. I hope you understand, especially you @MasterCal .

    With this change, Goblins should be more viable in Bait Cycle decks or even Siege. And Logbait could be viable again (with this buff and Rocket's rework).

    4. The Log
    - Projectile speed increased to Fireball speed
    5. Arrows
    - Projectile speed increased to Bullet speed

    Just like Zap dunked on Arrows, The Log is showing signs that it would be dunked by Barb. Barrel. Arrows and The Log indeed is viable, but it would be better if all spells have their own spot instead of them being of a workaround of a Mirror. With these changes, Arrows might get the respect it needs as a cheap spell and The Log doesn't get replaced by Barb. Barrel in decks because of the Control powercreep.

    Zap should be thrown off the throne as the king of cheap spells with the release of EDrag and this change.

    6. Sparky
    - Added knockback effect to all units to Projectile: 1 tile

    Disclaimer: This change wasn't made because i used Sparky (yes,it is). Anyway, Sparky used to be ranked as a queen of underrated cards until the release of EDrag. Meaning that Sparky is indeed a strong card-just underappreciated but the release of EDrag finally make her look really bad now. Especially, when EDrag are in META decks right now.

    Tbh, EDrag hasn't been a problem to me. But who would believe a word from a forumer that uses Guards as their profile pic. You would, but the community won't. So knowing that buffing any initial stats from Sparky is a bad move, Sparky should be given a new ability. I suggest that her shot should knockback any unit now, any unit, including Golem. Believe me, this isn't a big of a change in defense since who doesn't think that their tank is screwed up when Sparky's shot landed on them. It's no different from PEKKA on your tank, don't @ me about it. But of course, it's an improvement. The real improvement here is in offense, or counterpush i'd say #truestory.

    PEKKA, Valkyrie, Mega Knight, Dark Prince, Guards, etc. will now have a tougher time dealing with Sparky on defense.

    ....and finally! Let's begin with the final changes, but actually not least:
    NERFS
    NERFS is an opposite to Buffs, which is weakening the card's performance by only reducing it's power, nothing more nothing less. Let's begin the feast with:

    1. Three Musketeers
    - Size increased to 3x3 from 1x1, as explained in Lavahound change above

    Three Musketeers has been a dominant win. condition in the game for a long time and deserves a well settled nerf. The past few METAs finally proved that 3M doesn't just rely on cards such as Battle Ram or Elixir Collector to stay viable. 3M is actually a pretty independent card. So, since Musketeer is untouchable due to her being healthy and all as a card-3M should be nerf as a card as well. With this change, 3M will no longer be able to place from the back of the KT. Thus, making them more predictable and situational than ever.

    What Archetype did it nerf with this change? I dunno, Hog Cycle? (/s)

    2. Elixir Collector
    - Deploy time increased to 3 from 1 sec

    Elixir Collector has been the king of elixir source in heavy Beatdown decks for a very long time. 3M, Golem, and Fireball bait Beatdown decks. I think it's time to dethrone this card once and for all. It has been proven that any more changes to this card's hitpoints or elixir reproduction will make it unviable. So, instead of that-let's make it slower but sure by increasing it's DT. In other words, making it easier to react. Shouldn't be much of an impact that would make it unviable, since EC wasn't meant to be a reactive card after all.

    With these changes, 3M Pump or Golem Pump shouldn't be a dominant deck across time and space anymore.

    3. Miner
    - Hitspeed increased to 1.4 sec; DPS decreased by 11%

    Saitama This bald boi needs to relax for a while and stop with the high winrates and userates in Grand Challenges. It's not good for his health and hair. Though, this change might upset Clash with Ash (Tim, the CM) because of the recent videos he made but i think it's a good move to depower Miner for the sake of versatility. With this change, he shouldn't be much of a punish card in other decks but still rocking in his own popular archetype, that is the infamous Miner Control.

    4. Bandit
    - First attack speed removed when dashed on target

    HA! I pulled a sneaky on ya. Believe me, this change will not be a noticeable one. If you don't understand, lemme' break it down for ya. Troops sometimes attacks faster than their hitspeed upon their first counter on the target. This behavior is called first attack speed. Bandit has this behavior too. With this change, Bandit will no longer attack faster at her first hit to the target she dashed to. So yeah, i hope you calmed down abit after the explanation.

    You might be wondering, "what does this change do?". This change isn't actually targeted to Bandit, but rather troops that she almost ODKO (one dash knock out) to. That includes the new Bomber, Magic archer, Zappies, etc. This should give you more opportunity when she dabbed dashed on them.
    JcttehTheWise
    EarthThis signature is my city
  • ferrell34ferrell34 Posts: 1,450Moderator
    edited November 2018
    TL;DR:
    The next balance changes should be focused on the old cards and all the everlasting archetypes.
    True Rework: Night Witch, LavaHound.
    Buffs: XBow, Bomb Tower, Rocket, Bomber, Executioner, Goblins, The Log, Arrows, Sparky.
    Nerfs: 3M, Elixir Pump, Miner, Bandit, Golem, Pekka.
    Note:

    I really hope you enjoy the long read since i spent so much time on it. So thanks for reading and have a nice day :+1:
    don't forget to vote the poll
    You can leave feedbacks down below to show your support and thoughts about it. Any helpful feedback will be welcomed! ;)
    EarthThis signature is my city
  • JcttehTheWiseJcttehTheWise Posts: 2,019Moderator
    Read 100% ;)

    Before commenting the changes, I'd like to mention certain cards that I think should be adressed:

    Battleram: this card is way too dominant in the current control meta, I supose you didn't include it because you already nerfed/weaken rework other popular control cards such as Miner, PEKKA or Bandit. Anyway, I still think Battleram needs a nerf, since the strategy of big counterpush + ram & small support on the other lane is becoming so repetitive that is almost always predictable. Not gonna specify what kind of nerf anyway, I have my own nerf idea kept to the future :crsmirk:

    Barbarian Hut: I think this card has a similar problem to Rocket, in terms of a good value expensive building but spawns sooo slow and remains sooo much time that more like a hut feels like a giant rock that ocasionally spawns two blond guys. I think in order to make it more versatile it should get some kind of positive rework such as decreasing cost or spawn time with other thing to compensate.

    Archers: anyone would espect that Archers rates in GC are TRASH. I don't think they need a huge buff, but something to make them reliable again as a ranged swarmy troop.

    Now let's jump into the thread balance suggestions:

    1. X-Bow
    - Deploy time decreased to 2.5 sec from 3.5 sec
    - Lifetime decreased to 30 sec from 40 sec


    This is the change I was thinking to make X-Bow great again. My idea was to decrease time slightly less, 0.5 sec, but I think 1 sec is more reliable for players to shift into it and give the ultimate tower taker a try.

    2. Bomb Tower
    - Hitspeed decreased to 1.1 sec from 1.6 sec; DPS increased by 46%
    - Added blind range: 1 tile (Mortar's mechanic)


    I'm indecisive with this one. I don't know the huge DPS increase interactions, but seems too much. It may be better to also change the projectile as Bomber.

    3. Rocket
    - Radius decreased to 1.5 from 2 tiles
    - Projectile speed increased to Fireball speed


    I have a problem with this change. You pretend Rocket to be more useful in other decks appart from cycle, but reducing radius encourage using it more like a tower taker rather than for taking out other stuff, since less radius = less troops in it. I'd better decrease damage, so tower receives less damage but troops are not too afected since most of them are still 1HKO'd.

    1. Night Witch
    - Spawn rate increased to 9 sec from 7 sec
    - Death spawn increased to 4 from 2 Bats


    Agree. Current Night Witch's death spawn is a joke on defense. With 4 bats instead of 2, at least 1 of them sure will get 1 hit before all being killed by support.


    2. Lavahound
    - Size increased to 3x3 from 1x1, ex: Recruits take 8x1 tiles to deploy
    - Lavapups: Hitpoints increased by 6%; Damage increased by 37%


    It's an intelligent change, since lava hound now won't ignore common building placements, but lava pups death spawned are more dangerous. Balanced rework.

    1. PEKKA
    - Sight range increased to 6.5 from 5.5 tiles


    I'd prefer a nerf to her defensive capabilities, but this nerf is not a bad idea, making her easier to kite away from that annoying support (I'M LOOKING AT YOU DAMN EWIZ AND YOUR STUPID STUNS THAT MAKES MY HANDSOME PRINCE LOOK LIKE A PARAPLEGIC).

    2. Golem
    - Deploy time decreased to 2 from 3 sec
    - Golemmites: Hitpoints increased by 5%; Death damage knockback removed


    I think this change could be perfectly posible without the hitpoints increase. As a nerfproof card, Golem can be really a threat alone, unless you have a 4+ elixir building, with that enormous death damage. The deploy time reduction is also an intelligent change to equalise it with new Xbow deploy time.

    1. Bomber
    - Hitpoints increased by 5%
    - Projectile changed to Homing Projectile


    Full agree. I think the current inaccurate projectile is what makes this card a bad card.

    2. Executioner
    - Initial attack speed decreased to 0.7 sec; Hitspeed decreased to 2.2 from 2.4 sec; DPS increased by 9%


    This one took me by surprise. I find Executioner in a good spot right now, but if I needed to buff him to encourage Wiz users to use him, I wouldn't buff him that much for a card that already is a treat with nado. Just one of those 3 changes should be applied IMO.

    3. Goblins
    - Hitspeed decreased to 1 from 1.1 sec*
    *Affects Goblin Gang and Goblin Barrel


    I'd agree, if GGang spawned two of each goblins. GGang shouldn't be buffed as the already veratile strong card it is.

    4. The Log
    - Projectile speed increased to Fireball speed
    5. Arrows
    - Projectile speed increased to Bullet speed


    Meh, maybe Arrows could receive well a speed buff, but Log is fine for me. Sure after the upcoming Barb Barrel nerf log will shine again. About Zap being the king of spells, that's true. So why not nerf Zap directly?

    6. Sparky
    - Added knockback effect to all units to Projectile: 1 tile


    In that case, the projectile mechanic should change so Sparky targets quite nearer to her the projectile. In that way, the knockback will always push troops away from her instead of randomly.

    1. Three Musketeers
    - Size increased to 3x3 from 1x1, as explained in Lavahound change above


    Despite I'll always think 3m should be different troops from muskies, this
    change is a good way to reduce 3m investment power. Even a deploy time increase could be applied correctly in this case.

    2. Elixir Collector
    - Deploy time increased to 3 from 1 sec


    Really good change. This hopefully nerf the annoying situations where opponent starts with pump and you have no counter in hand.

    3. Miner
    - Hitspeed increased to 1.4 sec; DPS decreased by 11%


    Increasing hit speed is already a total DPS nerf, so why 11% more? That % should be toned down, even if we are talking about the best legendary.

    4. Bandit
    - First attack speed removed when dashed on target


    Not sure if I understood this one. You mean she dashes and doesn't instahit the target, or simply you refer to the first attack after dashing?


    Who knows, maybe there's a new MEGATHREAD trend in these forums :crsmirk:
    ferrell34MasterCal
    Forum Moderator and hobbyish doodler
    y550ls9wbwod.png
    I like underused stuff...
  • killerkiller Posts: 1,207Member
    I never realized how ridiculous 3m had become. I searched stats royale for most popular decks and sorted by winrate. 11 of the top 25 were 3m decks And 6 out of the top 10.

    Im game to try a lot of your suggestions but I’m not sure about-
    Xbow - confession, I hate siege decks and don’t welcome any buff. But thats just me.
    ferrell34
    vouz81kqd95y.png
    Two decks:
    Ram/exe/miner/tornado/ggang/poison/log/goblins
    Rhogs/tesla/valk/musk/fireball/zap/ggang/bats
    Signature art by JcttehTheWise
  • ferrell34ferrell34 Posts: 1,450Moderator
    edited November 2018

    Battleram: this card is way too dominant in the current control meta, I supose you didn't include it because you already nerfed/weaken rework other popular control cards such as Miner, PEKKA or Bandit. Anyway, I still think Battleram needs a nerf, since the strategy of big counterpush + ram & small support on the other lane is becoming so repetitive that is almost always predictable. Not gonna specify what kind of nerf anyway, I have my own nerf idea kept to the future :crsmirk:

    Hmmm, i think it's fine to leave Battle Ram for now. Since the release of EDrag literally wipe out all of it's own archetype from the META list, which is Bridge spam. Of course, Battle ram should be tweaked if they rose again after these changes :crsmirk: .
    Barbarian Hut: I think this card has a similar problem to Rocket, in terms of a good value expensive building but spawns sooo slow and remains sooo much time that more like a hut feels like a giant rock that ocasionally spawns two blond guys. I think in order to make it more versatile it should get some kind of positive rework such as decreasing cost or spawn time with other thing to compensate.

    Agreed, might put that on the list.

    Archers: anyone would espect that Archers rates in GC are TRASH. I don't think they need a huge buff, but something to make them reliable again as a ranged swarmy troop.

    Agreed. I might put that down on the list.

    2. Bomb Tower
    - Hitspeed decreased to 1.1 sec from 1.6 sec; DPS increased by 46%
    - Added blind range: 1 tile (Mortar's mechanic)


    I'm indecisive with this one. I don't know the huge DPS increase interactions, but seems too much. It may be better to also change the projectile as Bomber.

    I don't think so, it's DPS is still lower than Tesla after the changes. Plus, it cannot counter Royal hogs, Hog rider, or Giant if they're nearby as an exchange. It's not going to be overpowered imo.

    and Yeah, i might add that too.
    3. Rocket
    - Radius decreased to 1.5 from 2 tiles
    - Projectile speed increased to Fireball speed


    I have a problem with this change. You pretend Rocket to be more useful in other decks appart from cycle, but reducing radius encourage using it more like a tower taker rather than for taking out other stuff, since less radius = less troops in it. I'd better decrease damage, so tower receives less damage but troops are not too afected since most of them are still 1HKO'd.

    I don't think it would encourage spell cycle that much, since eventually the Rocket will get to the tower w/out this change. It's not like it's damage was increased.
    2. Golem
    - Deploy time decreased to 2 from 3 sec
    - Golemmites: Hitpoints increased by 5%; Death damage knockback removed


    I think this change could be perfectly posible without the hitpoints increase. As a nerfproof card, Golem can be really a threat alone, unless you have a 4+ elixir building, with that enormous death damage. The deploy time reduction is also an intelligent change to equalise it with new Xbow deploy time.

    Ah, that.. don't worry the 5% hp buff to golemmites is actually nothing :lol: i just made that up to convice "casual" players that Golem is still viable. If you're wondering, Golemmites should take an extra hit after the changes to die.

    2. Executioner
    - Initial attack speed decreased to 0.7 sec; Hitspeed decreased to 2.2 from 2.4 sec; DPS increased by 9%


    This one took me by surprise. I find Executioner in a good spot right now, but if I needed to buff him to encourage Wiz users to use him, I wouldn't buff him that much for a card that already is a treat with nado. Just one of those 3 changes should be applied IMO.

    Suprise, suprise, there are no 3 changes. It's only one, but ends up changing the other by force. Like decreasing the hitspeed would make the troop's DPS (damage per second) higher. Try to guess which is it.
    3. Goblins
    - Hitspeed decreased to 1 from 1.1 sec*
    *Affects Goblin Gang and Goblin Barrel


    I'd agree, if GGang spawned two of each goblins. GGang shouldn't be buffed as the already veratile strong card it is.

    The buff of the Log and Arrows below should keep them in check. But i'd probably put GGang on the rework list to fix this problem.
    4. The Log
    - Projectile speed increased to Fireball speed
    5. Arrows
    - Projectile speed increased to Bullet speed


    Meh, maybe Arrows could receive well a speed buff, but Log is fine for me. Sure after the upcoming Barb Barrel nerf log will shine again. About Zap being the king of spells, that's true. So why not nerf Zap directly?

    The reason i buff The Log is to prevent the Barb Barrel nerf. Barb Barrel might be actually a balanced card after all, it's just the decks that revolves him makes him look META. A recall that the old reason why people prefer the Log instead of Barb Barrel because of speed, Log was way faster back then despite Barb Barrel costs 2 elixir. So by doing that, we might actually see balance userates between these two cards.

    About Zap, i think the changes above is enough to dethrone it. Still, if it's still have the crown on it's head after this. NERF.
    6. Sparky
    - Added knockback effect to all units to Projectile: 1 tile


    In that case, the projectile mechanic should change so Sparky targets quite nearer to her the projectile. In that way, the knockback will always push troops away from her instead of randomly.

    The knockback direction is similiar to Bowler's, not The Log (which is 360), despite Sparky having the power of the Log. Bowler's knockback knows any unit 1 tile to the opposite direction they're heading, so theorically-it pushes the troops away.

    I might put this explanation above. Thanks for reminding.
    3. Miner
    - Hitspeed increased to 1.4 sec; DPS decreased by 11%


    Increasing hit speed is already a total DPS nerf, so why 11% more? That % should be toned down, even if we are talking about the best legendary.

    Again the DPS change were shown as the result of the first change, which is the Hitspeed. If you didn't notice the direct changes are the ones that started with '-' and ends with ';'. If i were going to nerf the DPS, i will put that on another point. And Again, no one can just nerf DPS directly.
    4. Bandit
    - First attack speed removed when dashed on target


    Not sure if I understood this one. You mean she dashes and doesn't instahit the target, or simply you refer to the first attack after dashing?

    Simply refering to the first attack after dashing.


    Thank you so much for your time and feedback. It really helps! @JcttehTheWise
    EarthThis signature is my city
  • KN11F3DKN11F3D Posts: 215Member
    edited November 2018
    I'm guessing you would be waiting for my response on the subject, but it taken me a while since there is so much to talk about. Also to note, I read 100% of the thread :)

    Just like in the thread, I shall start with the reworks and go in order:
    X-Bow - Duration Decreased from 40sec to 30sec, Deploy Time Increased from 3.5sec to 2.5sec.
    Good changes all around, but there is one extra change that I would want to do so that it doesn't seem like a damage-over-time nerf.

    Changes: Introduced Crown Tower Damage. Crown Tower Damage Decreased by 30% (20), Regular Damage Increased by 215% (56).
    Old DPS - 104, New DPS - 224, New Crown DPS - 80.
    Sounds like the Royal Giant buff all over again, doesn't it? Let me explain. This will make it easier to deal with mini tanks like the Ice Golem that plan to block the path temporarily so that it can get more damage down range. Glass Cannons can still take it out reasonably well though.

    Bomb Tower - Hit Speed Increased to 1.1sec, Added 1 tile Blind Spot. 167DPS.
    Not a fan of this one; it seems to be too powerful. It's even more powerful that the Musketeer! If I had to change, it would be the following.

    Changes: Hit Speed Increased to 1.3sec, Added 0.5 tile Blind Spot, Hit Points Increased by 12% (1261). 141DPS.
    This means unless they are in its face, it will still have the opportunity to target the attacking unit. Plus the fact that it is 5.5 tiles of active aiming puts it in line with the other buildings, and when one unit connects, it has the added hit points to survive for its value.

    Rocket - Radius Decreased to 1.5, Projectile Speed Increased to Fireball.
    Nope. Not allowing it, as it goes against what you want it to do. You could just do...

    Changes: Damage Decreased by 4.3% (1181/422)
    Main change is that it no longer kills an overlevelled Ice Golem or Sparky, but the buff to the X-Bow could justify it. It also takes one more Rocket to destroy the Arena Tower.

    Night Witch - Spawn Rate Decreased to 9 seconds, Spawns 4 Bats upon death.
    Maybe a bit much of a nerf tbh. Here is what I would do.

    Changes: Spawn Rate Decreased to 7.5 seconds, Spawns 3 Bats upon death.
    This should make it so that it isn't too much of a crutch in Golem decks any more.

    Lava Hound - Size Increased to 3x3, Lava Pup Hit Points Increased by 6% (190), Lava Pup Damage Increased by 37% (61)
    While the Lava Hound sizewise is 3x3 already, its hitbox is 1x1, so this might actually help players against LavaLoon buy some more time for the Balloon to go around it. As for the rest, it isn't needed; the damage buff is nice against Skeletons, but the Hit Points are too close to Minions.

    PEKKA - Sight Range Decreased to 5.5
    This is a buff to PEKKA, not a nerf. While it may not affect defense, she is now less effected by pulling, which is one of the main ways to counter. I would leave this.

    Golem - Deploy Time Decreased to 2 sec, Golemite Hit Points Increased by 5% (907), Golemite Death Damage Knockback removed.
    Again, this is a buff, not a nerf. Placing the Golem in the middle for near unstoppable damage has never been easier, and the Golemites, while they don't tank much anyway, could hold a single unit to deal a few hundred more hit points, which is life and death. The only good change that I would keep is the knockback removal, which is a pretty neat idea.

    Bomber - Hit Points Increased by 5% (327), Homing Projectile.
    This set of changes I can agree with. It's subtle enough to the point where he might just get used now. Main change here is surviving one hit from overlevelled Archers.

    Executioner - Initial Attack Speed Increased to 0.7sec, Hit Speed Increased to 2.2sec
    Agreed. The Wizard has been there for quite a while now, so I think it's time that he had a bit more of the spotlight.

    Goblins - Hit Speed Decreased to 1.1sec
    Agreed. Should tie it up with Bats in a decent way now, especially with the Barrel.

    The Log - Fireball Projectile Speed.
    Arrows - Travels at 768mph.
    No way. Not a chance. Part of the Log's advantages is the ability to be used with other cards, like the Hog Rider. As for Arrows, I get it's underrated against other spells, but seriously? You won't be able to see them :crsmirk:.
    The Log is under fire by the Barbarian Barrel, so I think that or the cards it counters needs to be sorted first. Then for Arrows, perhaps it could be a quick burst weapon? It is a salvo of arrows after all.

    Sparky - Knocks all units back by 1 tile.
    This might actually help a lot to bring her away from danger in all shapes and sizes for an extra second, which could be game changing. With this though, I would quite like to see one extra change added to allow her to splash (not target) air units.

    Three Musketeers - Size Increased to 3x3.
    They already are 3x3; look at the formation box. Next.

    Elixir Collector - Deploy Time Decreased to 3 seconds.
    This will make the Pump completely useless. At least with 1 second, if they throw a Rocket at it, they get at least 1 back. This will be a waste of a card space in all decks.

    Changes: Life Timer Increased to 75 seconds, Production Speed Decreased to 9.1sec. This produces the same amount of elixir.

    Miner - Hit Speed Decreased to 1.4sec.
    This is Lava Hound DPS on the tower... While it might need a nerf to prevent bait from dominating in the war between cheap and powerful, I would go to 1.3sec. At least then, it can still compete with the Knight. Any lower and the Royal Ghost will win in a 1vs1.

    Bandit - Initial Attack Speed removed while dashing.
    To make it clear, this makes the initial attack speed the same as the regular attack speed, so that when in contact, she doesn't hit any faster. This seems like an OK change to me.


    TL;DR:
    Yes - X-Bow, Bomber, Executioner, Goblins, Sparky, Miner
    Maybe - Lava Hound, Bandit
    No - Bomb Tower, Rocket, Night Witch, PEKKA, Golem, The Log, Arrows, Elixer Collector
    No comment. - 3M
    Rating about 50-50 with these changes.

    - KN11F3D
    ferrell34MasterCal
    Sparky Enthusiast⚡
    -=Forum All-Stars Co-Leader|Legendary Arena: 3911 Trophies|First Members|Balance Advisor=-
  • ferrell34ferrell34 Posts: 1,450Moderator
    edited November 2018
    KN11F3D wrote: »
    I'm guessing you would be waiting for my response on the subject, but it taken me a while since there is so much to talk about. Also to note, I read 100% of the thread :)

    I mean who doesn't ;)
    Good changes all around, but there is one extra change that I would want to do so that it doesn't seem like a damage-over-time nerf.

    Changes: Introduced Crown Tower Damage. Crown Tower Damage Decreased by 30% (20), Regular Damage Increased by 215% (56).
    Old DPS - 104, New DPS - 224, New Crown DPS - 80.
    Sounds like the Royal Giant buff all over again, doesn't it? Let me explain. This will make it easier to deal with mini tanks like the Ice Golem that plan to block the path temporarily so that it can get more damage down range. Glass Cannons can still take it out reasonably well though.

    That's a super interesting change though, i like it. I will put that on a new section of this thread and credit you for it. However, that reworks needs some tweaking. 215% damage buff is abit too much, Tesla that only has half of the range and 25% less DPS than this version of XBow got notched down-not to mention this. The regular DPS should be at least 153-similiar to Dart Goblin.
    Bomb Tower - Hit Speed Increased to 1.1sec, Added 1 tile Blind Spot. 167DPS.
    Not a fan of this one; it seems to be too powerful. It's even more powerful that the Musketeer! If I had to change, it would be the following.

    Changes: Hit Speed Increased to 1.3sec, Added 0.5 tile Blind Spot, Hit Points Increased by 12% (1261). 141DPS.
    This means unless they are in its face, it will still have the opportunity to target the attacking unit. Plus the fact that it is 5.5 tiles of active aiming puts it in line with the other buildings, and when one unit connects, it has the added hit points to survive for its value.

    Looking from all the feedbacks, i guess it's time that Bomb Tower's hitspeed buff should be toned down after all. I realized that Bomb Tower would be a pretty naggy building and a nasty one after the change, just like Wizard on defense. Though, i might compensate the change with a hp buff just like you said so it wouldn't be a weak change after all.
    Rocket - Radius Decreased to 1.5, Projectile Speed Increased to Fireball.
    Nope. Not allowing it, as it goes against what you want it to do. You could just do...

    Changes: Damage Decreased by 4.3% (1181/422)
    Main change is that it no longer kills an overlevelled Ice Golem or Sparky, but the buff to the X-Bow could justify it. It also takes one more Rocket to destroy the Arena Tower.

    Hmmm.. i see. I think it may not improve spell cycle, but it makes the card's direction more to spell cycle. Like JcttehTheWise said, i will change it soon.
    Night Witch - Spawn Rate Decreased to 9 seconds, Spawns 4 Bats upon death.
    Maybe a bit much of a nerf tbh. Here is what I would do.

    Changes: Spawn Rate Decreased to 7.5 seconds, Spawns 3 Bats upon death.
    This should make it so that it isn't too much of a crutch in Golem decks any more.

    Nah i think the 4 bats should be able to compensate the nerf for her performance. Your change actually improves her in Golem decks, 0.5 isn't much of a change at all and with 3 bats now-Golem NW is going to be stronger than ever.
    Lava Hound - Size Increased to 3x3, Lava Pup Hit Points Increased by 6% (190), Lava Pup Damage Increased by 37% (61)
    While the Lava Hound sizewise is 3x3 already, its hitbox is 1x1, so this might actually help players against LavaLoon buy some more time for the Balloon to go around it. As for the rest, it isn't needed; the damage buff is nice against Skeletons, but the Hit Points are too close to Minions.

    I think you missunderstood here. It's not the hitbox that increases, it's the tile requirement for the card to place. Like Recruits needs 8x1 to place so it's impossible to place them next to the tower. Again, it's not your fault since the word "size" is pretty confusing without context.
    PEKKA - Sight Range Decreased to 5.5
    This is a buff to PEKKA, not a nerf. While it may not affect defense, she is now less effected by pulling, which is one of the main ways to counter. I would leave this.

    Again another misunderstanding, PEKKA's sight range increased to 6.5 tiles not decreased to 5.5 tiles.
    Golem - Deploy Time Decreased to 2 sec, Golemite Hit Points Increased by 5% (907), Golemite Death Damage Knockback removed.
    Again, this is a buff, not a nerf. Placing the Golem in the middle for near unstoppable damage has never been easier, and the Golemites, while they don't tank much anyway, could hold a single unit to deal a few hundred more hit points, which is life and death. The only good change that I would keep is the knockback removal, which is a pretty neat idea.

    Actually, another reminder that Golem costs 8 elixir. So you'll be out of elixir to properly support Golem by then. In other words, the time you got your Lightning ready-your Golem had ran to the bridge and is currently 1/2 of it's health already pecked by Sparky.
    Goblins - Hit Speed Decreased to 1.1sec
    Agreed. Should tie it up with Bats in a decent way now, especially with the Barrel.

    Again, you misread it. It was a buff, from 1.1 sec to 1 sec. If anything, these goblins needs a bit of a boost to be used in current decks again-especially the O.R. goblins. I already explained it above.
    The Log - Fireball Projectile Speed.
    Arrows - Travels at 768mph.
    No way. Not a chance. Part of the Log's advantages is the ability to be used with other cards, like the Hog Rider. As for Arrows, I get it's underrated against other spells, but seriously? You won't be able to see them :crsmirk:.
    The Log is under fire by the Barbarian Barrel, so I think that or the cards it counters needs to be sorted first. Then for Arrows, perhaps it could be a quick burst weapon? It is a salvo of arrows after all.

    If i'm not mistaken, you also misunderstood about the Log change. The Log still rolls on the ground but with Fireball speed. If i'm not mistaken, Fireball travels faster than the Log. The Log's rolling speed was about 250 tiles/min while Fireball was about 600 tiles/min. But i think.. by looking from the feedbacks, the Log change should be removed once and for all.

    Musketeer bullet. Arrows travel for 800 tiles/min, where Musketeer's bullet goes for 6 tiles/0.25 sec or... 1680 tiles/min, which is about 2x faster. (If you're wondering where i get the data, it's at the Sheets Royale thread in the General Discussion made by @Damien4794 .
    Sparky - Knocks all units back by 1 tile.
    This might actually help a lot to bring her away from danger in all shapes and sizes for an extra second, which could be game changing. With this though, I would quite like to see one extra change added to allow her to splash (not target) air units.

    Might be abit of overkill.
    Three Musketeers - Size Increased to 3x3.
    They already are 3x3; look at the formation box. Next.

    Again, like the Lavahound-the amount of tiles to be able to place 3M increases to 3x3 tiles instead of 1.
    Elixir Collector - Deploy Time Decreased to 3 seconds.
    This will make the Pump completely useless. At least with 1 second, if they throw a Rocket at it, they get at least 1 back. This will be a waste of a card space in all decks.

    Baiting Rockets doesn't sound like a waste to me. ALSO, another reminder:
    buildings don't decrease their lifetime while delpoying state/ still on deploy time. So the interaction with spells will be the same-like Fireball or Poison.
    Miner - Hit Speed Decreased to 1.4sec.
    This is Lava Hound DPS on the tower... While it might need a nerf to prevent bait from dominating in the war between cheap and powerful, I would go to 1.3sec. At least then, it can still compete with the Knight. Any lower and the Royal Ghost will win in a 1vs1.

    Nah, META maniacs won't switch decks with that change.
    Bandit - Initial Attack Speed removed while dashing.
    To make it clear, this makes the initial attack speed the same as the regular attack speed, so that when in contact, she doesn't hit any faster. This seems like an OK change to me.

    Yes, only to the unit she dashed to. She still hit faster to targets that she walks to, not dashed to.


    Though there are many misunderstanding, most of your feedbacks are interesting and helpful! Thank you so much for your time and thoughts! :) @KN11F3D
    EarthThis signature is my city
  • KN11F3DKN11F3D Posts: 215Member
    @ferrell34 I was a little tired when making my response, so my apologies if I read some of them wrong. I'll see if I can adress them to make up for it.

    My Mistakes: 'Size' (Lava Hound, 3M), PEKKA, Goblins

    The 'Size' Problem to start. Now that I know it isn't the hitbox, I can understand where you were coming from, especially as you mentioned the Royal Recruits.
    In terms of the Lava Hound, I don't think it is necessary and the hit box misinterpretation would be better to make it harder for Balloons and Minions to get past. Three Musketeers on the other hand, I can agree with. This should give people more of a reaction time when facing bridge spam or placed in the middle.

    PEKKA being 6.5 rather than 5.5 in sight range. This would mean that you can place an Ice Golem one tile lower than usual to still pull her away. While it will help some of the Beatdown players more, I would only be cautious not to make the Ice Golem too useful.

    I still don't agree with the Golem change with the deploy time. Waiting 1 second less is only cutting off 2/5 of an elixir, and it won't make much difference. The reason why PEKKA's change from 3 seconds to 1 second was good because of the ability to play reactively, whereas this card just doesn't have that besides raw hit points.

    For Stab Goblins, I can only agree to the change to a 1 second hit speed if something is done to the initial attack speed of the Goblin Barrel to maintain the same damage, without making them obsolete. Otherwise this would be OK to do.

    - KN11F3D
    Sparky Enthusiast⚡
    -=Forum All-Stars Co-Leader|Legendary Arena: 3911 Trophies|First Members|Balance Advisor=-
  • GiorgakisGiorgakis Posts: 3,161Member
    edited November 2018
    I am completely against the PEKKA nerf. She is already underpowered in offense as a win condition, why ruin her even further. Instead I would do something like this:

    Sight Range decreased to 4 meters
    Hitpoints decreased by 15%
    Attack Period inceased to 2 seconds

    or something like this

    Cost increased to 8 Elixir
    Hitpoints increased by 4%
    Damage increased by 25%
    Sight Range decreased to 4 meters

    Also something to add to it: PEKKA's current sight range is actually 5 meters and not 5,5 meters, which is along with the Giant Skeleton, Zappies and Royal Ghost the lowest sight range in the game.
    TH9xMZx.jpg0

    Worship the 9 Titans (Golem, PEKKA, Lava Hound, Dragon, Giant Skeleton, Scorcher, Super PEKKA, Electro Dragon, Goblin Giant)
    Their card
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    Teach the 12 Titan Babies (Golemite, Mini PEKKA, Baby Dragon, Lava Pup, Sparky, Inferno Dragon, Ice Golem, Balloon, Cannon Cart, Dropship, Flying Machine, Deployable Turret)
    Protect the 12 Peasants (Skeletons, Goblins, Spear Goblins, Minions, Bats, Critters, Fire Spirits, Ice Spirits, Crystal Critters, Critter Bats, Explosive Drones, Beta Minion)
    Babysit the Titan Grandchild (Zappy)

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  • ferrell34ferrell34 Posts: 1,450Moderator
    edited November 2018
    DISCLAIMER:
    The December Balance Changes (12/3, 12/5) came out!
    Click the text above to check the changes!
    The changes weren't exactly going to the direction i was expecting, but hey, some things are too good to be true. Of course, i'm not entirely disappointed by the changes since the balance changes that came around are indeed needed and is able to shift things *for a while*. The Freeze rework really dunked me from saying that the changes weren't enough.

    Anyway, this thread is now abit irrelevant since it's a pretty big balance changes happening and we might see the real impact 2 weeks after. Would be pretty tough to shove these into a heating microwave that will serve some nice Christmas cookies.
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  • killerkiller Posts: 1,207Member
    edited November 2018
    I just played 20-30 tourney matches. The meta is sooooo repetitive. And unlikely to be changes by these balance changes. MK/hog, pekka/ram or hog and 3m - those three deck types made up more then half of all battles.

    Edit- its much closer to 2 out if every 3 battles is either pekka or megaknight
    vouz81kqd95y.png
    Two decks:
    Ram/exe/miner/tornado/ggang/poison/log/goblins
    Rhogs/tesla/valk/musk/fireball/zap/ggang/bats
    Signature art by JcttehTheWise
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